im not saying Islam did, people probably did though. ive made my point, lets move on mate.

*sighs *

Ok...lets move on...

Umm...how about:

The fertilizing winds

And We send the fecundating winds, then cause water to descend from the sky, therewith providing you with water in abundance.

(Qur'an, 15:22)
*Fecunating means to impregnate or fertilize


Allah Almighty also said in other Noble Verses that He sends the winds to excite the clouds.

Allah is He Who sendeth the winds so that they raise clouds, and spreadeth them along the sky as pleaseth Him, and causeth them to break and thou seest the rain downpouring from within them. And when He maketh it to fall on whom He will of His bondmen, lo! they rejoice

(30:48 )

God is the One who sends the winds to stir up clouds, then we drive them towards barren lands, and revive such lands after they were dead. Thus is the resurrection.

(35:9)



What modern science says:

1- "In a cloud, swift air separates water droplets, causing electrical charges.
The electrical charges build up and causes huge electric shocks. It generates about 100 million volts of electricity." (http://library.thinkquest.org/5818/thunder3.html)

2- "what Causes Rain?

Until recently meteorologists were unable to explain why clouds contain disproportionately large quantities of large and small water droplets. Now Dutch researchers claim that areas of air turbulence that forms very small spiral patterns and that this then causes clouds to produce rain.
...........
What has also been shown is that there are very few droplets in the center of each area of turbulence and that as a consequence the air there remains supersaturated. Until recently meteorologists had considered this to be impossible, but the results also indicated that air more than one hundred meters above the base of a cloud becomes so supersaturated with water vapour that droplets are created. Water vapour then condenses on particles (like dust), with a radius of less than a micrometer. Just how many small droplets develop depends on the level of supersaturation of the air." (http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/19991015072451data_trunc_sys.shtml)

what are you trying to show here?

The Quran said that the wind "excites" the clouds which causes it to rain.

The alleged words of Jesus in the Gospels on the cross were: "Eli! Eli! Lama Sabachthani?" Meaning "My god! My god! Why hast thou forsaken me?" Let me clearly pinpoint the exact words out for you: "My god! My god! Why hast thou forsaken me?"



Umm, there are some very strong verses which are too explicit to even deny them the slightest. Just as one commentator (I think it was Al-Tabarsi) said about one of the scientific verses of the Quran centuries ago: "It is best to keep quiet when we do not know". And now, we do know!

I've read that part. But, accordingly, one Gospel should complete another so no contradiction would take place. Now many have fallen short of admitting that the Gospels contradict one another. What is your say? :o

Na Abu Dhar: "The Prophet asked me at sunset, 'Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?' I replied, 'Allah and His Apostle know better.' He said, 'It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: 'And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing.' (36.38) (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Beginning of Creation, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421)"

Umm, did you carefully read that hadith Ahmed? Also, I need to know who the chain of narrators (isnad) are. This is VERY important so as not to mix up a hadith with a lying, hypocritical forger of hadiths. And no, Bukhari isn't 100% authentic at all. It's found to have a whole load of spurious "hadiths" which directly contradict the Quran. You'll know why I want this info later

yeah there are contradictions. do you think its a bad thing?

Ameer wrote:I've read that part. But, accordingly, one Gospel should complete another so no contradiction would take place. Now many have fallen short of admitting that the Gospels contradict one another. What is your say? :o

Na Abu Dhar: "The Prophet asked me at sunset, 'Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?' I replied, 'Allah and His Apostle know better.' He said, 'It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: 'And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing.' (36.38) (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Beginning of Creation, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421)"

Umm, did you carefully read that hadith Ahmed? Also, I need to know who the chain of narrators (isnad) are. This is VERY important so as not to mix up a hadith with a lying, hypocritical forger of hadiths. And no, Bukhari isn't 100% authentic at all. It's found to have a whole load of spurious "hadiths" which directly contradict the Quran. You'll know why I want this info later

To Sunnis Ameer, Al Bukahri as well as Muslim and a few others (those two are the most prominet ones), they are the 100% authentic ones. Could you tell me these hdith that contradict the Quran? :doubt:

Steve, to you contradictions aren't a bad thing? If the bible is truly from God, then it shoudln't have any contradictions...

Umm, no. Luckily, there are those Sunnis who take time to carefully study these hadiths and not blindly accept them all as authentic (not calling you blind brother, since you're open-minded ). I'll give you an example...

In Bukhari Sahih volume 1 Chapter "Fazlus-Sujud" Abu Hurayrah quoted a tradition: 'A group of people said to the glorious Prophet, O Prophet of Allah, shall we be able to see Allah on the Day of Resurrection? He replied, 'Don't you take pleasure when you look at the disc of the moon on the night of the fourteenth? 'We do', replied they. Again he said: 'You WILL see Allah in the same way. On the Day of Reckoning, Allah will assemble all people and command them to follow those whom they used to worship. Those who used to worship the sun will follow the sun and those who worshipped the moon will follow the moon; and those who worshipped the devils will walk behind their gods. The only people left will be the Muslims including the hypocrites. Then Allah WILL appear to them in a human form..."

It's best not to quote the whole hadith to make my post too big. As you can see, this is the biggest blasphemy saying that god would descend in human shape and actually be as low as his physical creation and is viewable to the eye. This is a direct contradiction to the Quran as is obvious from Sura 6 Al-An'am verse 104:

"Vision perceiveth Him not, and He perceiveth (all) vision; He is the Subtle, the All-Aware."

Hence the belief in seeing God in His person, at any time in this life or in the hereafter is an impossibility.

no, the gospels (Matthew, mark, luke and john) are each about jesus' life. reading it from 4 points of view is unique

Ok the Bible does not contradict it self.

And just let me know if I'm wrong Ahmed (I quite often am lol)

Ok so your "god" doesn't desire a personal relationship with you at all! But on the other hand he has the worlds stictest rule on worshiping and every other detail of life, it seems as if he is the most controling god in the entire world! He promises you 7 virgins in heaven/what ever you call it, that to me makes it sounds like he disrepects women all over the place, he makes them a prize little better than an animal. He instructs you that sucicide missions with the aim to kill non believers is good if not great. And he has giving you a religion to follow which is completly human you understand every bit of it!

So at the moment it sounds like he is:

-controling
-disrespectful to women
-disrepectful to life other than his follower
-not loving in the slightest
-and self centered (all he wants is for you to go on and on about how good he is)
-and apparently has the uderstanding of a human

Now just the fact that the entire human race does not uderstand everything should show that not understanding everything is a goodthing and understanding everything shows a level way below that of who ever created the universe, therefore in my opinion who ever you worship did not make this universe.

We can't even fathom how big this world is or how much God loves us.
And as far as the whole "show me one thing to show God loves you" check this out.

We always here about how God can't love us, because in the beggining when we sinned he covered us up because he couldn't bare to look at us, he kicked us out of the garden because he didn't want us in there because we werent good enough. And he put an angel at the gate to make sure that never again would we enjoy the fruit of life.

But if you look at it it never says any of that it says,

We thought we were naked and therefore no longer good enough to be in the present of God, so he gave us clothing so we would feel comfortable talking and being with him, because he so desies a relationship with us.

He kicked us out and put an angel at the front of gate so that never again would we eat the fruit of life and have to live in the sinful state forever but we'd live for a short as period of time before going to live with him for eternity, showing again hw much he loves us!

God rocks!

i think this is the best thing to do...

Ok the Bible does not contradict it self.

And just let me know if I'm wrong Ahmed (I quite often am lol)

Ok
so your "god" doesn't desire a personal relationship with you at all!
But on the other hand he has the worlds stictest rule on worshipping and
every other detail of life, it seems as if he is the most controling
god in the entire world! He promises you 7 virgins in heaven/what ever
you call it, that to me makes it sounds like he disrepects women all
over the place, he makes them a prize little better than an animal. He
instructs you that sucicide missions with the aim to kill non believers
is good if not great. And he has giving you a religion to follow which
is completly human you understand every bit of it!

So at the moment it sounds like he is:

-controling
-disrespectful to women
-disrepectful to life other than his follower
-not loving in the slightest
-and self centered (all he wants is for you to go on and on about how good he is)
-and apparently has the uderstanding of a human

thats as far as i can fix your post i think im right but everyone else will know

Why what was wrong with it, I think your just afriad of people disagreeing but for that please remember this is a DEBATE and that was my OPINION and OPINIONs are not fact so they can't be wrong. My opinion of something could be false but it is still my opinion and yes that did make sense in my head!

i left alot of your oppinions in, i was just playing around anyway. i was trying to make it say something new by striking out words i didnt want... its too late here though and i need sleep

Umm, Denz, this isn't the debate room. Oh, and, according to the Gospels, the Children of Israel are alright needing only the "bread" (figuratively speaking meaning "faith") and that the faith shouldn't be handed to Gentiles (non-jews) calling us "dogs". In Matthew 15:24-26 it is written that Jesus said:

"But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not for me to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs."

The woman wasn't an Israeli and Jesus is meant to speak figuratively saying the "lost sheep" are the confused Jews and the "children" too are the Jews being the 'Children of Israel' and the "bread" is meaning the faith and the "dogs" are the non-Jews who are not from the 'Children of Israel'. In the end she is healed but look at what we are considered as :doubt:.

Ok the Bible does not contradict it self.

And just let me know if I'm wrong Ahmed (I quite often am lol)

Ok
so your "god" doesn't desire a personal relationship with you at all!
But on the other hand he has the worlds stictest rule on worshipping and
every other detail of life, it seems as if he is the most controling
god in the entire world! He promises you 7 virgins in heaven/what ever
you call it, that to me makes it sounds like he disrepects women all
over the place, he makes them a prize little better than an animal. He
instructs you that sucicide missions with the aim to kill non believers
is good if not great. And he has giving you a religion to follow which
is completly human you understand every bit of it!

So at the moment it sounds like he is:

-controling
-disrespectful to women
-disrepectful to life other than his follower
-not loving in the slightest
-and self centered (all he wants is for you to go on and on about how good he is)
-and apparently has the uderstanding of a human

Ok, now I officially dub you an idiot who has no knowledge of anything.

The Bible explicitly contradicts itself. But we'll be a bit easier and deduce to only one of the Testaments and i'll be even fairer to reducing it to one book of the Testament. Even after all that, there's a clear contradiction. As for your other comments, i'm not even going to point out how stupid you really are.

Quote:

To Him ascend the Angels and the Spirit in a day the measure of which is fifty thousand years.

(70:4)

In this verse of the Sura 'The way of Ascent' ( it is the Way which take the Angels from the Earth to the Heaven after having excecuted the duties necessary for the Life of our Planet and the Kosmos. We can note that Allah doesn't say "fifty thousand years of what you number" because the day in question in this verse is a time measure of a Gods day ( which each day is 1000 years in our reckoning ) and this day is the age of the Universe which all events of our life from heaven to earth ascend to Him.

Let's convert these God's Years in our norms :

50,000 * 365.2422 (days in human year) = 18,262,110 Allah's Days.

One Day by Allah is corresponding 1000 years of our reckoning, therefore the Age of the Universe is :

18,262,110 * 1,000 = 18,262,110,000 years, that's to say that the age of the Universe is around 18, 1/4 Billions years. This number correspond exactly of the above article . After more than 14 centuries, Science and particularly Professor Jean-Claude Batelere of the "College de France" states that it is now a certitude that the Universe is 18 billions years old .
[/quote]

That is pretty damn amazing.

To Him ascend the Angels and the Spirit in a day the measure of which is fifty thousand years.

in a single day?

Now, Steve. You do accept that there is something called a Divine Power, or Being, right? So if the Divine Power (which the Muslims believe is Allah and worship) is Divine, why an the above mentioned feat be accomplished in 'a single day'?

P.S : Dear Ameer, can you please stay on topic here. You are more than welcome to make a new topic about the Hadith itself. Thanks.

Ameer wrote:Umm, no. Luckily, there are those Sunnis who take time to carefully study these hadiths and not blindly accept them all as authentic (not calling you blind brother, since you're open-minded ). I'll give you an example...

In Bukhari Sahih volume 1 Chapter "Fazlus-Sujud" Abu Hurayrah quoted a tradition: 'A group of people said to the glorious Prophet, O Prophet of Allah, shall we be able to see Allah on the Day of Resurrection? He replied, 'Don't you take pleasure when you look at the disc of the moon on the night of the fourteenth? 'We do', replied they. Again he said: 'You WILL see Allah in the same way. On the Day of Reckoning, Allah will assemble all people and command them to follow those whom they used to worship. Those who used to worship the sun will follow the sun and those who worshipped the moon will follow the moon; and those who worshipped the devils will walk behind their gods. The only people left will be the Muslims including the hypocrites. Then Allah WILL appear to them in a human form..."

It's best not to quote the whole hadith to make my post too big. As you can see, this is the biggest blasphemy saying that god would descend in human shape and actually be as low as his physical creation and is viewable to the eye. This is a direct contradiction to the Quran as is obvious from Sura 6 Al-An'am verse 104:

"Vision perceiveth Him not, and He perceiveth (all) vision; He is the Subtle, the All-Aware."

Hence the belief in seeing God in His person, at any time in this life or in the hereafter is an impossibility.

Well, that verse might be talking about the Earth life. It didn't say anything about the hereafter....
----------------------------------------

Steve said:

no, the gospels (Matthew, mark, luke and john) are each about jesus' life. reading it from 4 points of view is unique

Knowing that they were the disciples of Jesus(AS), and at the same time having contradicting stories...doesn't give a good impression does it?

Den Denz said:

Ok the Bible does not contradict it self.

And just let me know if I'm wrong Ahmed (I quite often am lol)

Ok so your "god" doesn't desire a personal relationship with you at all! But on the other hand he has the worlds stictest rule on worshiping and every other detail of life, it seems as if he is the most controling god in the entire world! He promises you 7 virgins in heaven/what ever you call it, that to me makes it sounds like he disrepects women all over the place, he makes them a prize little better than an animal. He instructs you that sucicide missions with the aim to kill non believers is good if not great. And he has giving you a religion to follow which is completly human you understand every bit of it!

So at the moment it sounds like he is:

-controling
-disrespectful to women
-disrepectful to life other than his follower
-not loving in the slightest
-and self centered (all he wants is for you to go on and on about how good he is)
-and apparently has the uderstanding of a human

Now just the fact that the entire human race does not uderstand everything should show that not understanding everything is a goodthing and understanding everything shows a level way below that of who ever created the universe, therefore in my opinion who ever you worship did not make this universe.

We can't even fathom how big this world is or how much God loves us.
And as far as the whole "show me one thing to show God loves you" check this out.

We always here about how God can't love us, because in the beggining when we sinned he covered us up because he couldn't bare to look at us, he kicked us out of the garden because he didn't want us in there because we werent good enough. And he put an angel at the gate to make sure that never again would we enjoy the fruit of life.

But if you look at it it never says any of that it says,

We thought we were naked and therefore no longer good enough to be in the present of God, so he gave us clothing so we would feel comfortable talking and being with him, because he so desies a relationship with us.

He kicked us out and put an angel at the front of gate so that never again would we eat the fruit of life and have to live in the sinful state forever but we'd live for a short as period of time before going to live with him for eternity, showing again hw much he loves us!

God rocks!

Yes, it does, and I could give you millions of examples here the Bible contradicts itself if you want

Denz we Muslims believe we are worshiping the same God as the Christians and the Jews. The only difference is that you partner him up with Jesus(AS).

Of course there is a personal relation! There is a hadith that says "If you walk to god, God flys to you!" When you read the Quran, Allah speaks to you. When you pray to Allah, Allah speaks to you...that's not a personal relation to you?

First of all its 21 "women" . Secondly they aren't mortal women (like you for example) they are women made from light. Also how is that disrespect at all?!

Us Muslims have deprived ourselves from this so called "earth life" so we could get the ultimate reward in the hereafter

No, Allah never instructed us do suicide bombs to gain heaven at all. As a matter of fact suicide is forbidden in Islam, and if someone dies through suicide they die as a non-believer

What's bad about understanding the religion that you follow? :scratch:

You said:

"So at the moment it sounds like he is:

-controling -How could he be controlling if he gave us free will? :doubt:
-disrespectful to women-Explain please...
-disrepectful to life other than his follower-then why did he make life?
-not loving in the slightest-How could you say that is he made the feeling "love" and one of his names is "The Loving"?
-and self centered (all he wants is for you to go on and on about how good he is)-Go on in what?...and don't forget that he is the creator
-and apparently has the understanding of a human"Wow I never saw such ignorance before! Please read what I have been writing to Steve the last 3 pages!

Denz, you are blindfolded . Look, it not that hard, it quite simple. Knowing the religion that you follow completely, is very different then knowing everything! What is a religion? A religion is a believe right? How could you have a believe if you don't understand it

Yeah, I'll tell you one thing that shows that God loves me. He made me Muslim (Al Hamdullah)

Us Muslims, believe in almost the same story of Adam (AS) that you do
--------------------------------------

Steve I already explained that verse to you, please let's not go back!

P.S.: Denz...this isn't a debate

Lol yeah sorry I keep gettng mixed up in what topic I'm in!!

A lol I'm offically an idoit hey? Good to know!

But yeah yur right the Bible contradicts itself left right and center from the front to the back! It was late I just couldn't be bothered typing the rest of the thought that is:

The Bible contradicts itself over and over again, but not in any way that changes or challenges the belief, to my knowledge, so in the end the contradictions lead me not to believe it is wrong rather than it was written by more than one person who was trying to express it in such a way that makes sense, each of the goespels tell the same storied plus a few others that are all told from a different point of view so that we could gain a better understanding.

And what do you guys believe in the context of creation?

I am happy that you accepted the fact that the Bible is contradictory. And by 'the context of creation' you mean how the universe was created, right?

And how does contradiction have no affect on the belief. Atleast we agree that God would ofcourse not contradict, right?

Hmm, maybe not, he can use it for us to read mre into it and bring great learning and growth!!

Lol yeah, what's your belief on the beggining of the world.

Basically like yours Denz, how many times do we need to tell you that we believe in the Same God that Jews and Christains do?

Hmm yeah I know, it is just that you said it was slightly different.

And you don't ever need to tell me that again, thanks

Hassan, I am staying on topic- this is the Islam topic you mango


Umm, so you admit to contradiction? :scratch: Then that's no ground belief :o

And yes, if there was found even one contradiction the Quran would have never been accepted as the "Word of God" at all. :affraid:

Well, that verse might be talking about the Earth life. It didn't say anything about the hereafter....

Yes, making God as low as his physical creation; contradicting one of the most basic beliefs that He resembles nothing of his creation, is not a contradiction? :doubt:

And can you please tell me the isnad (chain of narrators) for that hadith from Abu Dhar (ra) please?

Quote:

To Him ascend the Angels and the Spirit in a day the measure of which is fifty thousand years.

in a single day?

"To Him ascend the Angels and the Spirit in a day the measure of which is fifty thousand years."

Oh come on, now how could you not notice that?