*I want you to debate like you never debated before*
As we all know we are in the era of the "Clash of Civilizations" (Mostly between Islam and the West).

Who do you think started it? Who's fault is it that humans live in misery?

P.S.: Here is some info on the Clash of Civilizations.
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To start us off, I say the westners were the ones that began the Clash of Civilizations ever since the crusades.

Well, I do not consider the Clash of Civilizations itself a negative thing. Ever since the various Cultures came in contact, atleast one learned something from the other (and sometimes both!).

To answer the question of who started it, I would agree that the crusades were perhaps the first big clash between two different yet similar believes. There must have been some prior contact between two different cultures, like the one in India between teh Indus Valley original resident and the Aryans, but none had a bigger impact than the crusades.

Now the misery: Depends on how you define misery.

When the civilizations clashed, knowledge was shared, which led to new discoveries and better life fot many, especially in Europe. However, if you consider it misery that man has engaged himself in various cultures, fotgetting his own, than perhaps he is the one most responsibe (himself!).

The misery, in many case (but not all) is self afflicted. Many have tthe power of changing things but they seldom do so. As Thoreau said, "the mass of man lives life in quite desperation".

war brings the wrold together as mutch as it brings us apart.

I see Hassan that you are pro-Globalization...

You know why many people are dieing today? Its because of the Clash. Woudl do you think colonization was? It was the westners wanting to westnerize other countries.

Pried: Thats the point! The world knwoing together is what is causing wars!

Brother the crusades started in the 11th century, the clash between Islam and the West (the Byzantine empire) officially started during the Battle of Mut'ah (which was a ghazwa BTW) 8 years after Hijrah, 19 years after the Call to Prophethood ....

Sayfullah wrote:Brother the crusades started in the 11th century, the clash between Islam and the West (the Byzantine empire) officially started during the Battle of Mut'ah (which was a ghazwa BTW) 8 years after Hijrah, 19 years after the Call to Prophethood ....

Really? I thought the Muslism first had contact with the westners (Byzantines) after the Prphet's (SAW) death...they just had contact at his time with the pagan Arabs.

يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَى وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوا إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ اللَّهِ أَتْقَاكُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ (49:13

49:13 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

Well Ahmed, pro-Globalization with limits.

It is not the Clash itself which brought colonization. (The Clash, as a believer in Taqdeer, had to happen anyway!). It was the people who allowed such stuff. If the Mughals had been stronger, they would noy have been defeated, and etc.

Indeed Sayf, that is true. But the crusades opened the Muslim world to the west, and the west to the east, as never before.

And Ahmed, this ayat clearly says that man is suppose to interact with other groups (ye may know each other!).

But the clash has only brought to the Muslim explotation. AKA look at islam when the Soviet Union was still alive. The west used to say "Islam is the beautiful religion", "The Civilized one", all this grabage was said so the Msulism(Taliban) coudl fight the soviets. But after the Soviet union fell, Margaret Thatcher, a past British politician who served as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom , said: "The historical enemy of the west,Communism, has ended, and the eternal enemy of the west, Islam, has risen."

Brother we can only blame ourselves for this.

Muslims ruled the world when they were practicing Islam and then fell to their knees when they left it and left themselves vulnerable to such assualts ....

Sayfullah wrote:Brother we can only blame ourselves for this.

Muslims ruled the world when they were practicing Islam and then fell to their knees when they left it and left themselves vulnerable to such assualts ....

True, and I agree 100% , but that's not the point of the topic...

I just want to debate on who started the Clash of Civilizations.

I agree with Sayf. The apparent loss of position by Muslims is our own folly, not someone else's.

As Iqbal says:
(Urdu to English translation:)
We have lost the status we got fron the ancestors
that now time has thrown us from the sky on the earth

Hassan I wrote:I agree with Sayf. The apparent loss of position by Muslims is our own folly, not someone else's.

As Iqbal says:
(Urdu to English translation:)
We have lost the status we got fron the ancestors
that now time has thrown us from the sky on the earth

I know! And I agree.

But for the sake of the topic, we want to debate on who is to blame for the clash (not why the Muslism are suffering today).

Exactly. But then again, you said "blame for the clash". I do not think that it is a sin, or a crime, so no one is to blame (and again, Taqdeer). It had to happen.

I think it is better to ask if the results are positive or negative?

Actually, the Clash started with The Soviet Union invading Afganistan, which resulted today's terrorist groups. We gave the Afgansitans arms to fight against the Soviets and later, the Afganistan people think we turned on them and that is hoiw we have Operation desert storm and the 2001 or 4 invasion of Iraq, which the terrorists we think are hiding.

jj16802 wrote:Actually, the Clash started with The Soviet Union invading Afganistan, which resulted today's terrorist groups. We gave the Afgansitans arms to fight against the Soviets and later, the Afganistan people think we turned on them and that is hoiw we have Operation desert storm and the 2001 or 4 invasion of Iraq, which the terrorists we think are hiding.

No, thats just one of the many chapters of the "Clash" ....

The beginning chapter, I suppose.

JJ you confused many topics with each other. The people that the west gave weapons to, to fight the soviets were, whom are today known as the Talibans, whom live in Afghanistan. "Operation Desert Strom" has to do with Iraq, and it was "supposedly" America helping Kuwait(its 51st state).

Hassan, the Clash is a bad thing obviuolsy. I think you are mxing "cultural diffusion" with the "Clash".

Ok, explain how it is bad!

Do you watch the news!?

People are dieing beacsue of the clash! Muslims are being slaughtered everyday.

Muslim genocide in Bosnia
Afghanistan
Iraq
Palsestine
Most likeley Iran is next
According to Bush he thinks that Syria has nucleuar facilities...so it might be after.
Somalia

I think these are more than enough.

Kashmir too ....

I forgot Chechnya also...do you still think its a good thing Hassan?

I thought that was covered by Bosnia ....

No, Bosnia covers the Balkans(eastern Europe) which cover, Bosnia, Albania nad Kosovo. Chechnya is currently occupied by Russia.(Its in Asia)

ok i dont understand 1 word of this